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General sports discussion => Other sports => Topic started by: Jay on January 27, 2014, 08:26:45 PM

Title: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 27, 2014, 08:26:45 PM
Hey lads, been doing a lot of research lately and have come up with my top 10 NBA players of all-time list and would love to get your thoughts.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Kobe Bryant

Let me know if you'd like me to explain any of my picks. But man, Kobe vs. Oscar vs. Hakeem for 10th place was so hard to pick, not much between them at all. Larry and Magic is also a roll of the dice.

So what is your top 10?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 27, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
the ol debate.

Lack of Shaq in top 5 disappoints me. lolkobe. Bird @ 2 is weird placing.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 27, 2014, 08:48:31 PM
the ol debate.

Lack of Shaq in top 5 disappoints me. lolkobe. Bird @ 2 is weird placing.
Shaq at 6 is fair enough, its higher than where most others have him! Would have him above Russell but 11 rings is too hard to turn down ;)

Kobe 5 rings, 2 finals MVPs and a season MVP. Could score 35 at will in his prime! Deserves to be there but wouldnt want to see him any higher than 10, that is maximum imo.

How is Bird at 2 weird? The common theme is Magic #2 but a fair case can be made for Bird being a better basketball player than Magic...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 27, 2014, 08:58:55 PM
I love Bird, but Magic, Kareem, LBJ, Shaq and maybe Hakeem are all I think deserve higher than Bird. Its close. Like there are a list of top 10, but then the order is all debatable.

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. LBJ
6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Baylor/Wilt/Oscar
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 27, 2014, 09:20:04 PM
I like your list, but as dominant as Shaq was offensively I'm not sure he deserves top 3 player of all-time status... Didnt impact too many games defensively. Not to mention his FT shooting, send him to the line and he was buggered...

I dont really have a reason for Hakeem being outside my top 10, that dude had one of the best two-way games of all-time so I love that you have him in yours.

Bird at 6 is too low imo, 3 rings. 3 MVPs in the Magic Johnson/Kareem era! If it wasnt for his bad back maybe he becomes a lock top 2 :o could score, rebound, pass and play very gritty defense! I think 2-4 is his range on an all-time list :)

LBJ too high and Wilt > Baylor and Big O btw
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 28, 2014, 06:41:57 AM
I just cant put myself to putting Wilt in the top 10. He was dominant, but it was in an era where they didnt have shotclocks and 3 second violations. ALso when defending wasn't at all a big thing. It was always just score more than them. When Bill Russell went against Wilt, his numbers like halved.

As for Shaq, you don't need to defend when you can man handle and score at will vs anyone.

Maybe Bird below LBJ is a bit far fetched, but LBJ is really a freak of nature. I would put him 3 if I could, but need to see out his career first. I honestly think is within touching distance of Jordan.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: FisherSaints on January 28, 2014, 08:21:50 AM
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Russell
8. LBJ
9. Kobe
10. Duncan
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 08:45:17 AM
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Russell
8. LBJ
9. Kobe
10. Duncan
Not bad, but I think Russell is a bit low... 5 MVPs, 11 rings! Thats crazy :o

Also, give me Duncan over Kobe any day ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 28, 2014, 09:35:05 AM
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Russell
8. LBJ
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

I think you have the top 9 players right, just not in the right order.  Oscar Robertson has to be in the list as well ahead of Duncan.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: _wato on January 28, 2014, 10:04:48 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Lebron James
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Tim Duncan
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 12:54:45 PM
Duncan certainly deserves to be top 10, best PF of all-time. Not as flashy as Kobe but I think TD eclipses Kobe in terms of actual production and improving his team-mates.

Oscar statistically dominated a weak era with Kareem by his side. Numbers dropped off majorly come playoff time and I dont believe he ever got a finals MVP :-\

I like wato's top 10. Very similar to mine ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 28, 2014, 01:53:51 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul Jabaar
5. Bill Russel
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. Julius 'Dr J' Erving
9. Bob Cousy
10. Hakeem 'The Dream' Olajuwon



At the end of their careers, put in LBJ, Kobe, Tim Duncan, i just think that a lot of you go on averages and stats, the game has changed so much since way past the Jordan/Magic/Bird era, and i think the physicallity of the game back then would not suit LBJ, Kobe and such, thats why i think of these as the best, being the best players in the best and most physical era of basketball there will ever be.

That's my opinion, i know a lot of you will disagree, but if you watch the games in the 70's/80's and early 90's. That's why i think they're all there above the current crop of NBA legends.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 02:21:55 PM
Hm very interesting. I like your points on the different eras, but I do think that Tim Duncan would thrive in any era. Kobe and LBJ may be a bit thrown off by the extra physicality but Timmy's game is just so fundamentally sound, that I dont think he'd decline much ay all if any...

I'm a Celts fan and dont think Cousy belongs top 10. Magic, Oscar and Stockton would all be above him in my GOAT PG list. Maybe even guys like Kidd, Isiah and CP3 too :o

Wilt dominated against 6'8 white guys :P dont think he belongs top 5. Wasnt really a winner either imo, more of a stat-sheet stuffer.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 28, 2014, 02:25:27 PM
I know what you mean by Tim Duncan, i think that because he's older he was more suited to that era. I really think Barkley could even make it.

But i would not put LBJ in there just yet, let him average 35+ points 4 seasons in a row and i might consider changing my mind.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 02:27:45 PM
I know what you mean by Tim Duncan, i think that because he's older he was more suited to that era. I really think Barkley could even make it.

But i would not put LBJ in there just yet, let him average 35+ points 4 seasons in a row and i might consider changing my mind.
Barkley too without a doubt. Was looking at his stats today, such a beast offensively and inch-for-inch has to be the best rebounder ever :o
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 28, 2014, 02:30:30 PM
I know what you mean by Tim Duncan, i think that because he's older he was more suited to that era. I really think Barkley could even make it.

But i would not put LBJ in there just yet, let him average 35+ points 4 seasons in a row and i might consider changing my mind.
Barkley too without a doubt. Was looking at his stats today, such a beast offensively and inch-for-inch has to be the best rebounder ever :o
There's so many there isn't an outright top 10. you just can't make it.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 28, 2014, 02:31:54 PM
1. Brian "White Mamba" Scalabrine MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. LBJ
6. Shaq
7. Russel
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan/Big O

---

Re PG Jay, hard to leave Nash out of that list.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 28, 2014, 02:40:34 PM
Also a note about my list, I can easily see LBJ rise to No.2 by the end of the career. No.1 is possible but unlikely...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on January 28, 2014, 02:49:54 PM
1. M.Jordan  ::)
2: Kareem
3: Johnson
4: Bird
5: Shaq
6: Wilt
7: Russel
8:James
9: Duncan
10: Kobe

Hakeem or Kobe for 10th. Went with Bryant....

James any higher than 8th I can't do. Wanna see how well he goes really late in his career....

Liking my list.  8)

LOVE Kareem.  ;D
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 28, 2014, 03:14:41 PM
Kobe ain't a Top 10 player IMO
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 03:21:33 PM
I don't really like seeing Kareem above Magic :-X Magic was the star player on those teams without a doubt...

Kobe scrapes in by the skin of his teeth imo. Don't have a problem with anyone that puts Oscar or Hakeem above him in that 8-10 range though.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: kingkingston on January 28, 2014, 04:36:30 PM
Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic Johnson
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem


LeBron may make the top 10 one day but he has a lot of work to do before he gets there
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 28, 2014, 04:47:47 PM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 28, 2014, 04:58:37 PM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?

I think most people know my hatred of both Kobe and LBJ - but Kobe is clearly ahead of LBJ
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 28, 2014, 06:01:51 PM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?

I think most people know my hatred of both Kobe and LBJ - but Kobe is clearly ahead of LBJ

what.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM
5 > 2 is the only explanation for Kobe being ahead of LeBrick

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic Johnson
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem


LeBron may make the top 10 one day but he has a lot of work to do before he gets there
Magic is very low :o blasphemy to leave him outside the top 5 imo
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 28, 2014, 06:51:26 PM
Russell is better than Jordan. 11>6

Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: _wato on January 28, 2014, 07:40:36 PM
I like wato's top 10. Very similar to mine ;)

Cheers mate, you too ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 29, 2014, 08:23:02 AM
Russell is better than Jordan. 11>6
^

Rings matter but they are not everything. LeBron still has many years to win more rings too.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 29, 2014, 10:11:04 AM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?

I think most people know my hatred of both Kobe and LBJ - but Kobe is clearly ahead of LBJ

what.

You heard me - KOBE IS CLEARLY AHEAD OF LBJ

Kobe carried his team to 2 championships (and worked with Shaq for 3).  LBJ hasn't carried his team to a championship - he had to team up with D-Wade and Bosh to get championships. 
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 29, 2014, 10:44:47 AM
Valk has a good point, although Kobe would've got no rings with Pau if KG didn't get injured in '09 and Perkins had been fit for game 7 of the 2010 finals :P

LeBron teamed up with 2 perennial all-stars and even then his championships have been full of controversy... Refs gifted him the conference finals over Boston (Wade fouled Rondo game 2, no call) and then last years finals were complete bs (Manu getting fouled by Ray, no call). Lebron could easily still be ringless :o

I have Lebron top 10, but I dont think he'll finish his career top 5. Heck, I'm not even sure he'll get another ring :o

Russell is better than Jordan. 11>6
Not saying I agree with that argument, it's just the one that most Kobe fans use...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 29, 2014, 11:17:13 AM
Wow I'm harsh on LeBron but I definitely think he is Top 5. And you never know what he could've done in the past 3 seasons with Cleveland/another team.

And don't play down Kobe's Lakers. They had guys near the level of Wade today.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on January 29, 2014, 11:44:58 AM
The level of LBJ fan boyness is too damn high.  :P
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on January 29, 2014, 05:53:55 PM
Here's what am sure you all been waiting for! The Bags top 10 ;D

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Majic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Lebron James
6. Bill Russell
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Karl Malone
10. Charles Barkley
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 29, 2014, 06:01:38 PM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?

I think most people know my hatred of both Kobe and LBJ - but Kobe is clearly ahead of LBJ

what.

You heard me - KOBE IS CLEARLY AHEAD OF LBJ

Kobe carried his team to 2 championships (and worked with Shaq for 3).  LBJ hasn't carried his team to a championship - he had to team up with D-Wade and Bosh to get championships.

This isn;t even true.

Gasol was robbed of the finals MVP one year. "worked with shaq" is a load of shower. Shaq was the only reason why they won 3. LeBron carried literately the worst NBA team to the finals, and conference finals and playoffs 3 times. Look at what K-Love is doing. He has a horrible side, not the worst, but can't even make the playoffs. LeBron took the worst side in the NBA and took it deep every time.

Don't even mention Bosh. He is horrible. Wade has declined so much that this is LeBron's team. Did you not see any of the playoffs? Game 6 and 7 vs Spurs, Conf finals.  He carried his team.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 29, 2014, 06:14:19 PM
Here's what am sure you all been waiting for! The Bags top 10 ;D

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Majic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Lebron James
6. Bill Russell
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Karl Malone
10. Charles Barkley
A few players from the 90s there ;) no Shaq :o
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 29, 2014, 06:32:25 PM
I'm a Celtics fan.

How can Kobe be higher than LeBron?

I think most people know my hatred of both Kobe and LBJ - but Kobe is clearly ahead of LBJ

what.

You heard me - KOBE IS CLEARLY AHEAD OF LBJ

Kobe carried his team to 2 championships (and worked with Shaq for 3).  LBJ hasn't carried his team to a championship - he had to team up with D-Wade and Bosh to get championships.

This isn;t even true.

Gasol was robbed of the finals MVP one year. "worked with shaq" is a load of shower. Shaq was the only reason why they won 3. LeBron carried literately the worst NBA team to the finals, and conference finals and playoffs 3 times. Look at what K-Love is doing. He has a horrible side, not the worst, but can't even make the playoffs. LeBron took the worst side in the NBA and took it deep every time.

Don't even mention Bosh. He is horrible. Wade has declined so much that this is LeBron's team. Did you not see any of the playoffs? Game 6 and 7 vs Spurs, Conf finals.  He carried his team.
Bushower imo. Gasol was not "robbed" of anything... "Robbed" is Larry Bird not getting finals mvp in his first championship. Kobe had a better PER than Pau in both the playoffs of the '09 '10 championships. ::) Kobe deserved it in '09 and either Pau or Kobe were deserving in '10, no one was robbed.

Shaq was the main reason LA did their threepeat but its stupid to say Kobe didnt play a major part. Averaged 21, 29 and 27 ppg over the playoffs of those 3 seasons. While pulling in about 6 rebounds and dishing out about 5 assists per night over those 3 years... Putting up those numbers as the #2 option on a threepeat team is very impressive! I think Kobe and Shaq are the best duo.of all-time, they both needee each other to succeed.

Lebron had some help on those Cleveland teams. Boozer, Varejao, Shaq, Jamison, Mo Williams, Delonte West and Big Z were all there at different stages... Dont forget he got swept in his first finals and choked away his first finals series in Miami... Also came up very small in some series', particularly vs Boston! No one ever compared Love to Lebron? ???

Bosh is a very good player, was a beast prior to leaving Toronto and now finds himself as the #3 option... I think Bosh has done quite well! D-Wade pulled Lebron out of some big holes in their first couple of years, pity his knee is screwed now :-\
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 29, 2014, 06:45:50 PM
Klolwut.......

Kobe's PER is slightly higher, but look at everything else. WS, EFG, TS, ORTG, DRTG. Gasol should've won the finals MVP. Didn't say anything about Kobe not playing a major part. You could've put any decent player in with Shaq @ that time and it would've been the same result. Which is my exact point. It wasn't Kobe that made the difference.

Really? LeBron had some help? Shaq was 38, Big Z was injured every 2nd game,  Varejo was decent but he is a bench player on any contender team and how can you even mention West and Williams? West you should know barely played @ Celtics and Mo Williams is a terrible PG. He is a decent scorer but thats about it.

Got swept in his first finals? MJ got swept 3 times. In a row. In his first 3 playoff appearances.

Bosh was a beast on a terrible team. What a surprise...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 29, 2014, 07:37:05 PM
You do realise PER accounts for basically everything (although I still maintain it doesn't reflect defense much at all)? It's 50/50 IMO for that 2010 finals MVP, Kobe was the #1 option for that team all season, he deserved the award and got it. There's nothing more to discuss! It's 60/40 Shaq's way in terms of contributing to the threepeat IMO. You could say that any decent player + Shaq gets a threepeat, but you don't know that. Maybe Kobe and Shaq complemented each other perfectly... Look what happened the year after, you bring The Glove and Malone into the lineup and it flowers you up. Kobe and Shaq was perfect.

Shaq still provided a big body and had some offensive moves. Big Z had injury troubles, but he was still efective spacing the floor. Varejao was not bad at all. West didnt fit in Boston but was good at Cleveland, him and Mo got all-star iirc and Mo is still a solid scorer nowadays. Just sayin' that if LeBrick is a top 5 player of all-time, he shouldve at least won 1 NBA Finals game with that supporting cast, I'm sure Jordan would have...

Lol, MJ came up against the Bad Boy Pistons... No team LeBron has come up against are better than them. Dirk's Mavs are you kidding me? MJ would've swept them... MJ never lost a finals series, Lebron has already lost 2. It's just crazy you think Bron is on pace to be GOAT ::)

Bosh is still a very effective player, one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. You've seen what he can do when he actually gets some of the ball!
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on January 29, 2014, 07:41:46 PM
Bosh's talents are being "suppressed" now in the time he has been in Miami IMO.

Better player when he is the main offensive weapon like in the Toronto days.  :'(
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Nige on January 29, 2014, 07:45:52 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Jason Kidd

The rest idk.  :P
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 02:22:10 AM
You do realise PER accounts for basically everything (although I still maintain it doesn't reflect defense much at all)? It's 50/50 IMO for that 2010 finals MVP, Kobe was the #1 option for that team all season, he deserved the award and got it. There's nothing more to discuss! It's 60/40 Shaq's way in terms of contributing to the threepeat IMO. You could say that any decent player + Shaq gets a threepeat, but you don't know that. Maybe Kobe and Shaq complemented each other perfectly... Look what happened the year after, you bring The Glove and Malone into the lineup and it flowers you up. Kobe and Shaq was perfect.

Shaq still provided a big body and had some offensive moves. Big Z had injury troubles, but he was still efective spacing the floor. Varejao was not bad at all. West didnt fit in Boston but was good at Cleveland, him and Mo got all-star iirc and Mo is still a solid scorer nowadays. Just sayin' that if LeBrick is a top 5 player of all-time, he shouldve at least won 1 NBA Finals game with that supporting cast, I'm sure Jordan would have...

Lol, MJ came up against the Bad Boy Pistons... No team LeBron has come up against are better than them. Dirk's Mavs are you kidding me? MJ would've swept them... MJ never lost a finals series, Lebron has already lost 2. It's just crazy you think Bron is on pace to be GOAT ::)

Bosh is still a very effective player, one of the best mid-range shooters in the league. You've seen what he can do when he actually gets some of the ball!

Being a huge stats guy, esp in NBA, I ofcourse know what PER is. However PER isn't everything, while it is the most important advanced stat out there, if other things are going in the favour of player A, but player B has a higher PER, player A is prob the better player or better season.

60/40 Shaq? Really?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

the 2nd of the 3 peat, is the only one where he played to the calibre of an elite player.

One thing I would love to mention. Kobe's best ever season, is when the lakers never made the playoffs. He was by himself and had his best season by far, yet his Lakers never made the playoffs. LBJ's 4th best season, took the worst NBA team to the finals. Just a quick comparison ( I know you aren't making anything for Kobe vs LBJ, just thought it was an interesting point)


Getting all star means jack, when Iverson can get an all star without even playing a game. Credibility goes down the window. Massive difference between a solid scorer and a solid PG, which is his position.

As for Bosh. If he is the main offensive weapon, then your team isn't very good. He was the main offensive and best player for a bottom 5 team. Now he is a squad player in  a top 5 team. Thats just what player he is. You can't escape that. He is a standard player for a Championship side, and excels in a bad team, just like every other player that starts in a championship side would.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 30, 2014, 05:14:59 PM
I'm with Andrew.

Not to mention the fact Kobe has won 1 MVP. And you can't use the 90s excuse because he drafted in 96 or something. LeBron already has 4 at 29 while Kobe won his first at 30.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 07:54:50 PM
Kobe's prime clashed with Garnett, Duncan, Nash and Dirk. No one was there to really challenge Lebron for MVP imo :-X

Yeah yeah, LeBron makes his team-mates better than Kobe does but when they were both on their own, Kobe and Bron never won a title. Maybe if Lebron had a bit more Kobe mentality he wouldnt lost the finals to Dallas?

Kobe is the closest we have seen to MJ so deserves some respect... No one said he was better than LeBron ::) 5 rings speak for themselves... I dont think Bron will reach that.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 08:13:42 PM
Well lets put this to the test. Even if, lets say LeBron was up against Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Dirk and Bryant all in their primes, would he still be the best player?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2006&p3=nashst01&y3=2007&p4=garneke01&y4=2004&p5=jamesle01&y5=2013


All their best seasons. LBJ's is still the best. His 2nd, 3rd and 4th best seasons, are still ahead of them. Just shows how elite LBJ is and how haters need to step down and actually look at the raw stats.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 08:31:10 PM
Well looking at those it proves that Kobe should have at least 1 more MVP.. His prime stats > Nash and Dirk's

So I'm a hater for having Lebron at #8 of all-time? Lol? I know how flowering good Lebron is... I also know that he is definitely not on track to passing MJ ::)

Its not all about "raw stats", winning intangibles should play a huge part... Do you have his "raw stats" for his playoff record in Cleveland when he came up smaller than Mini Me vs. Boston on a number of occassions? How about the 2011 finals, raw stats werent so great then... 8 points in a full game, are you kidding me? Even last years finals he makes crucial turnovers down the stretch of game 6 then misses the game-tying three, luckily Ray Allen saved his ass. Been the luckiest 2 rings of all-time imo.

He may never get another ring, who knows?! Give me MJ's 6/6 Finals record any day.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 08:45:02 PM
He threw that one game vs Boston, yes that is a big problem. But people forget how he smashed so many teams in the playoffs.

Im not saying your a hater for having him @ 8. I'm saying people are haters because they think he couldnt do it when others were in their primes. Don't understand how they are the luckiest rings of all time. They were the best team in the 3 finals series. They played like shower in vs Dallas, which they should've won, they beat Spurs and OKC. Teams they are better than.

 The thing is, Cleveland were the worst team in the NBA, with LeBron, they were top 2. You can't say that about any other team/player in the history of the game. There is only so much you can do as a SF when you are the only above average player, let a lone elite player on the team.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 09:35:01 PM
Games 5 and 6 vs. Boston were laughable from Lebron. Every time there was an important posession, he flowered up big time. Still remember that cross-court pass to Parker lol. I dont think he "threw" any of those games though, he couldn't have beaten us even at his best. Even if he did 'throw' those games to get out of Cleveland, thats not the mentality I want from my GOAT...

Do I need to go over it again? Game 2 ECF 2012 late in the game Wade HACKS Rondo, no-call! Goes into OT and we lose, if we win that game, we win the series. Lebron doesnt get his 1st ring.

Game 6 of 2013 finals was the most obviously rigged game since the Kings vs Lakers saga. The Ray Allen foul on Manu was ridiculous! Bosh on Green was questionable too...

He won nothing in Cleveland...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 09:58:09 PM
If this, if that. Ifs and buts can also work the other way.

Like I said, I doubt other historic elite players could even reach the finals, let alone win a championship with that pathetic cavs side.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 10:02:14 PM
If this, if that. Ifs and buts can also work the other way.

Like I said, I doubt other historic elite players could even reach the finals, let alone win a championship with that pathetic cavs side.
MJ would've performed better than LeBron did with the exact same team in that era...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 10:22:41 PM
I doubt it, obv can't prove it either way, but I don't think anyone could've done a better job than LBJ on that Cleveland team. ONly thing we can look at is how the players performed at the same age. Which can give us an idea, but no defininite answer, since its all hypothetical and too many variances and other controllers that go into it.

As MJ didn't play too many games @22, we can take both ages 21 and 23 and see how it compares to LBJ's 06-07 when he made it to the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1985&p2=jamesle01&y2=2007

This is Jordan's first season, which just shows how goaty he is. It's close but LBJ wins in everything but PER.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1987&p2=jamesle01&y2=2007

Age 23 is where Jordan starts to WIM. He smashes everything, which is I think one of the greatest single seasons.

Also, just like to post this

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jordami01&y1=1993&p2=jamesle01&y2=2014

LBJ vs Jordan up to the same age. Its close, with MJ leading obv, but to note, MJ had 2 rings (3rd being this year), 3 MVP's, 2 Finals MVP. LBJ has 2 rings, 4 MVP's and 2 Final's MVP. So with silverware close, stats close LBJ isn't that far behind MJ. However, LBJ is in a situation where he needs to deliver, which is where the doubt comes in, something that no one would ever do to MJ.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
There's no way at all that I can say for sure but I really believe MJ could've won an NBA finals game with that Cleveland team, something LeBron never managed to do.

Not quite sure what you're trying to prove... MJ clearly beats him stats wise? PER and WS/48 being the most important, MJ wins both of them in regular season + playoffs ???

The question is can Lebron now replicate what MJ did in his very late 20s/early 30s... I doubt he can. I think he gets 1, maybe 2 more rings :o
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 10:49:37 PM
There's no way at all that I can say for sure but I really believe MJ could've won an NBA finals game with that Cleveland team, something LeBron never managed to do.

Not quite sure what you're trying to prove... MJ clearly beats him stats wise? PER and WS/48 being the most important, MJ wins both of them in regular season + playoffs ???

The question is can Lebron now replicate what MJ did in his very late 20s/early 30s... I doubt he can. I think he gets 1, maybe 2 more rings :o

I wasnt trying to prove either way, I just said lets take a look at the stats. Stats wise, he is on just below and championships and awards wiise he is 1 MVP infront and everything is tied. So its going to an interesting next 2 years for lebron.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 30, 2014, 10:58:32 PM
The fact that the silverware aspect is still extremely close is credit to MJ... Lebron should be at least a couple of MVPs + rings ahead of MJ when you consider the talent level of the guys MJ was up against compared to Lebron
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 30, 2014, 11:09:06 PM
This may be true, but guys like Kareem early on and Duncan later on didn't exactly have all time greats either. So if we bag out LBJ for having it done light, we gotta do it to some other all time elite players too. We are seeing something great with KD and LBJ though.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on January 31, 2014, 11:04:11 AM
This may be true, but guys like Kareem early on and Duncan later on didn't exactly have all time greats either. So if we bag out LBJ for having it done light, we gotta do it to some other all time elite players too. We are seeing something great with KD and LBJ though.
You got the bad boy Pistons, Magic's Lakers, Ewing's Knicks, Shaq's Magic, Barkley's Suns, Stockton + Malone, Kemp + The Glove... Was just a phenominal era and for MJ to dominate it like he did is pretty amazing.

The KD/Lebron thing is interesting... Did MJ even have talks of him not being the best player in the world during his prime?

I think Durant is catching LBJ... And fast...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on January 31, 2014, 11:15:35 AM
Difference between LBJ fan boys and Kobe fans is that Kobe fans respect what James is/does, while LBJ fans downright dis-credit whatever Kobe has achieved, IMO.

Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 31, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
Difference between LBJ fan boys and Kobe fans is that Kobe fans respect what James is/does, while LBJ fans downright dis-credit whatever Kobe has achieved, IMO.

And then there is me, who can't stand either Kobe or LBJ but do appreciate that they are good players.  Kobe is better than LBJ if you compare careers to date (which is what we are doing)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: T Dog on January 31, 2014, 12:10:35 PM
I am surprised none of these names appearing yet...Marques Haynes, Meadowlark Lemon, Jerome James, Reece "Goose" Tatum.
Their team had a great winning %..must count for something... ;D
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 31, 2014, 03:42:23 PM
I never stated that LBJ is better than MJ. (Anything is possible).

But saying Kobe is better than LeBron is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 31, 2014, 04:17:04 PM
I never stated that LBJ is better than MJ. (Anything is possible).

But saying Kobe is better than LeBron is FACT...

Fixed it for you 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 31, 2014, 05:26:36 PM
Difference between LBJ fan boys and Kobe fans is that Kobe fans respect what James is/does, while LBJ fans downright dis-credit whatever Kobe has achieved, IMO.

And then there is me, who can't stand either Kobe or LBJ but do appreciate that they are good players.  Kobe is better than LBJ if you compare careers to date (which is what we are doing)

Its not even close if you compare them...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on January 31, 2014, 05:49:23 PM
Valk has provided no insight into how Kobe is better. Probably trolling  :P
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: valkorum on January 31, 2014, 08:41:15 PM
I aint trolling but I am finding it difficult to talk about either Kobe or LBJ (as I cant stand them).   In time LBJ will probably be better than Kobe but at the moment (careers to date) he isnt.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on January 31, 2014, 09:21:56 PM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 01, 2014, 09:31:29 AM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on February 01, 2014, 09:34:17 AM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
In MVPs he is.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 01, 2014, 10:34:04 AM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
In MVPs he is.
Reckon lebron would swap his MVPs for rings of he could?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 01, 2014, 11:51:40 AM
Again, the ring argument doesnt work.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 01, 2014, 01:29:43 PM
Again, the ring argument doesnt work.
it's not up to you to decide what does and doesn't count ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 01, 2014, 02:01:52 PM
1/10 troll attempt. You are 0/3 now.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 01, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
1/10 troll attempt. You are 0/3 now.
haha ^^^ this guy, yeah ok ::)

So in Basketball you claim the stats prove the best but in Football its the guys you claim to 'Actually watch" To determine the better player  ??? hmmm
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 01, 2014, 02:37:50 PM
0/4 now?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 01, 2014, 02:45:09 PM
Way to go champ ;)  cant even defend your own dribble, well done :)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 01, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
If I have to explain the difference between between 2 sports, then lel.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 01, 2014, 03:42:10 PM
makes no sense, but i'll help, here you go

keep
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/13049/dighole.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 01, 2014, 03:46:06 PM
Well done 0/5. But keep trying.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 01, 2014, 03:50:30 PM
Ah passive aggressive again, well here ya go

(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/13049/dighole.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on February 01, 2014, 07:49:28 PM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
In MVPs he is.
Reckon lebron would swap his MVPs for rings of he could?
iirc there is quite a difference in age between the two.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 02, 2014, 12:16:51 AM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
In MVPs he is.
Reckon lebron would swap his MVPs for rings of he could?
iirc there is quite a difference in age between the two.
Dont be a smartass, just saying that when comparing superstars, rings are probably the main factor.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Mat0369 on February 02, 2014, 12:42:47 AM
The fact that the silverware aspect is still extremely close is credit to MJ... Lebron should be at least a couple of MVPs + rings ahead of MJ when you consider the talent level of the guys MJ was up against compared to Lebron


Also don't forget to take into account that hand checking was legal through MJ's career and that you could play a much more physical style of defense.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 02, 2014, 06:19:58 AM
That also swings both ways with defense too. He prob couldn't get away with as physical defense as he did in his days, than the way the game is now.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on February 02, 2014, 08:37:32 AM
Again, if you look at the stats and career achievements, LBJ is ahead.
Not in rings he isnt.
In MVPs he is.
Reckon lebron would swap his MVPs for rings of he could?
iirc there is quite a difference in age between the two.
Dont be a smartass, just saying that when comparing superstars, rings are probably the main factor.
Well I'm saying LeBron has plenty of time to get a few more rings. Obviously players would swap MVPs for a ring, but rings are team things. But rings are definitely not the main factor.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 08, 2014, 05:01:43 PM
After much studying and research, I have come up with a new, flawless, indisputable top 10 ;)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

and just for reference, my next 10 are...

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Karl Malone
14. David Robinson
15. Moses Malone
16. Jerry West
17. Julius Erving
18. Isiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkley
20. Bob Pettit
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on February 08, 2014, 08:20:53 PM
Shaq too high imo, Charles and Kobe too low! Nice list for a young fella ;D
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 08, 2014, 08:34:01 PM
Shaq too high imo, Charles and Kobe too low! Nice list for a young fella ;D
The '0' in Charles' ring category is the only reason he is that low ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 06:11:41 AM
Shaq too low. LBJ too low. Wilt, Russell, Bird too high and Kareem.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 09, 2014, 07:34:34 AM
Shaq too low. LBJ too low. Wilt, Russell, Bird too high and Kareem.
Shaq is just right, not putting him in front of any of MJ, Kareem, Magic Bird or Russell. For obvious reasons ::)

LBJ is basically #8, cant really split him and Duncan. When Lebron gets another ring, he'll leapfrog into 7th.

Not sure how you can say Russell is too high, with 5 mvp's and 11 rings. Its blasphemous to leave him outside the top 5.

Some people have Wilt a lot higher than 7th... Maybe he wasnt as much of a winner as other guys but he was brilliant stastically and is probably the most dominant force the game has ever seen.

I made sure that where ever I put Magic, I put Bird one spot below just because their rivalry was so even it wouldnt make sense to have them far apart in a top 10.

Please tell me how Kareem is too high? I looked at regular season numbers, playoff numbers, prime numbers, advanced stats and silverware... He is clear #2 GOAT
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 09, 2014, 07:39:57 AM
I had Kareem at #2 before you.  8)  :P




Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 07:55:57 AM
Again, Wilt was dominant in an era were it was score more than your opponent. There was no shot clock, no 3 second rule and n one cared about defense. The only defender that was any good was Russell. 11 rings and 5 MVP's, better put him number 1 then.

Shaq>Bird>Russell. I don't think we need to go into detail in how Shaq was better because it should be obvious.

Magic>Kareem, which is why you can't have him at 2. Top 5 should be clear as day.

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
LeBron

Then it starts to get sticky.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 09, 2014, 08:04:27 AM
That top 5 has a distinct lack of Bird...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 08:07:12 AM
I love Bird, just think the white man isn't as good as Shaq and LeBron, which is fine since those guys are ultra ridiculously gifted athletically and elite talented. Shaq could've been the greatest player ever if he added more commitment and worked harder, but he was content being the most dominate player ever.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 09, 2014, 08:14:48 AM
I'd wait until James' career is over before putting him ahead of Bird.

Even in Bird's last year in the league (played only 45 games) but averaged 20, 9 & 6 with a PER of 21.

Just wanna see how LBJ goes when he is 35..  :P
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 08:19:44 AM
Apples and Oranges. LBJ is built on his athleticism dominance in the game. He is 6ft 9ish which makes him bigger than most SF's yet a lot quicker too. Which is why is/was the ball handler. He was as quick as the 6ft PG's but 3 times as strong.

Bird however was just silky smooth and technically gifted. His shot unmatched. He can do what he did at 21 @ 35. Not as efficient, but pretty much to the same effect since it doesnt require such high elite athleticism.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 09, 2014, 08:29:42 AM
Good point, so as LBJ gets older he might not be able to put up (as) big numbers given that his elite athleticism will surely wane when he gets to 35...

I'd expect him to adapt and become a better outside shooter and jump shot player.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 08:33:01 AM
I expect him to decline heavily from 32 or so. He isn't like MJ and Kobe. He needs his athleticism. His shot is coming along so he might become a better shooter, but thats not how he is dangerous and if thats the way he goes as a player, no team will give a shower.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 09, 2014, 10:23:54 AM
Again, Wilt was dominant in an era were it was score more than your opponent. There was no shot clock, no 3 second rule and n one cared about defense. The only defender that was any good was Russell. 11 rings and 5 MVP's, better put him number 1 then.

Shaq>Bird>Russell. I don't think we need to go into detail in how Shaq was better because it should be obvious.

Magic>Kareem, which is why you can't have him at 2. Top 5 should be clear as day.

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
LeBron

Then it starts to get sticky.
You do realise that Wilt put up almost 24ppg in games against Russell? Not a bad output against the GOAT defensive player... We all know that the rules were different in the Wilt era but you cant deny he flat out dominated his opposition. Not sure what more he could have done? Have a 150 point game? ::)

I never said Russell should be number 1, but I'm just saying that with the accolades he has received, he simply cant be out of the top 5 no matter how many offensive statistics you bring up.

Birds beats Shaq in terms of silverware and the statistics are close. I've got Bird > Shaq because it doesnt seem right to have Bird far away from Magic at all, their rivalry was a draw imo. If Shaq played better D or got another MVP award, I may have him above Bird.

The top 5 is clear as day, it just isnt yours :P how do you suppose Magic is better than Kareem? Because everything I see now says KAJ is better... Sure, Kareem passed the torch to Magic on that Laker team but he was a beast in Milwaukee too. His prime >>>> Magic's

Dont like your top 5. Shaq and LBJ too high!
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 10:38:36 AM
Again, the shotclock and no 3 second. They can just stand there for 5 minutes. Thats huge for an offensive man. He scored like 50ppg against every but Russell.

Bird vs Shaq, the Statistics aren't close at all. SHaq has a clear WS, PER, USG, TS and EFG lead. SHaq didn't need to play D because his offense was unstoppable.

As for Kareem vs Magic, I have 0 idea what you are looking at, everything is equal during season time, but when playoffs hit, Magic takes over. PER Kareem wins by like .4, TS Magic wins by .16, Magic wins OWS, Kareem wins DWS, WS is even. Playoffs, everything except defensive stats, Magic wins. Magic played in every playoffs for his entire career. Like I said before, its close, but Magic is the number 2 player ever. Closely followed by Kareem.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 09, 2014, 11:09:48 AM
Again, the shotclock and no 3 second. They can just stand there for 5 minutes. Thats huge for an offensive man. He scored like 50ppg against every but Russell.

Bird vs Shaq, the Statistics aren't close at all. SHaq has a clear WS, PER, USG, TS and EFG lead. SHaq didn't need to play D because his offense was unstoppable.

As for Kareem vs Magic, I have 0 idea what you are looking at, everything is equal during season time, but when playoffs hit, Magic takes over. PER Kareem wins by like .4, TS Magic wins by .16, Magic wins OWS, Kareem wins DWS, WS is even. Playoffs, everything except defensive stats, Magic wins. Magic played in every playoffs for his entire career. Like I said before, its close, but Magic is the number 2 player ever. Closely followed by Kareem.
Just sayin' that 24ppg is more than what a lot of centres would avg vs. BR!

Bird with 2 extra MVPs outweigh's Shaq's statistical advantage imo. Regular season WS between the 2 are basically identical ::) whats crazy is Bird putting up similar rebounding numbers to Shaq while having a clear advantage in assists & also a higher ppg. Prime Bird actually scored more than Prime Shaq at a better TS%... 29.9 points at 60% TS is incredible!

Kareem has better PER and WS than Magic in regular season. Playoff PER is equal... Kareem prime has better WS and PER than prime Magic! And he also holds the silverware advantage :)

I'n using WS/48 btw
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 08:32:25 PM
So now we use primes? That goal post shift.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 09, 2014, 09:17:49 PM
So now we use primes? That goal post shift.
You dont take into account when a player is at their best?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 09, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
When we use primes, we are only using certain seasons, which then put the low area of statistics out of the equation. For instance, someone who has had a long career like Shaq, where they deteriorate, but are still good enough to play on a playoff contender. If we only use prime Shaq he is >Kareem. Kareem is only considered top 5 because of how long and extensive his career was. He played 20 or so seasons, of that, about 10 or so is prime, but his prime isnt as high as Shaqs, but because his longevity at the peak of his prime was extensive, they rate him higher.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 06:10:48 AM
How on earth is prime Shaq > Kareem? Go look at the stats for both of them in their prime... Kareem's prime > anyone's other than MJ.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 09:15:05 AM
Oki doki

So prime shaq is 5 years between 97-02. Prime Kareem is 11 years between 70-81. We will take PER, WS/48 TS, EFG.

Regular Season

Shaq  PER: 29.98  TS : .589   eFG: .582  WS/48 : .269

Kareem PER: 26.69   TS: .597  eFG: .557  WS/48: .250

Playoffs

Shaq  PER: 29.65  TS: .564  eFG: .556  WS/48: .226

Kareem PER: 23.32  TS: .507  eFG: .493  WS/48:  .181

People are forgetting or simply don't know, just how good and dominate Shaq was in his prime.

Also, not sure if you knew, prime Kareem only won 1 ring. Wasn't till a guy named Magic Johnson came along and gave him another 5. Kareem wasn't even in his prime at that time.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on February 10, 2014, 04:27:52 PM
This Aussie is going to be No.1 in a few years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDZaJFd4aSk
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 05:11:53 PM
I think using a 5 year Shaq prime vs. an 11-year Kareem prime is fairly unfair.

Look at their best ever single seasons... Kareem's is incredible.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: T Dog on February 10, 2014, 05:48:56 PM
The Sky Hook...that is all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcniUfKRlU
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 10, 2014, 06:10:12 PM
I think using a 5 year Shaq prime vs. an 11-year Kareem prime is fairly unfair.

Look at their best ever single seasons... Kareem's is incredible.

Boston Shaq..................................
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 06:33:29 PM
I think using a 5 year Shaq prime vs. an 11-year Kareem prime is fairly unfair.

Look at their best ever single seasons... Kareem's is incredible.

Oh so now we are using single seasons? Make up your mind, is it career, prime or single season? Not my fault Kareem's prime lasted 11 years, while Shaq's lasted 5. All I did was take Shaqs best years and Kareem's best. Stop shifting the goal posts.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 07:45:49 PM
I think using a 5 year Shaq prime vs. an 11-year Kareem prime is fairly unfair.

Look at their best ever single seasons... Kareem's is incredible.

Oh so now we are using single seasons? Make up your mind, is it career, prime or single season? Not my fault Kareem's prime lasted 11 years, while Shaq's lasted 5. All I did was take Shaqs best years and Kareem's best. Stop shifting the goal posts.
In my little spreadsheet I've got "prime" numbers being a player's best regular season. Never said anything about a 5 or 11 year span... Not changing the goal posts at all, have been consistent from the start.

Still not sure how you can value a stat like eFG and TS over basic stats like points, rebounds and assists. PER and WS are ok because they take into account a player's entire game but eFG and TS just measure efficency in their scoring. How about all the other meaningful stats? Because I certainly rate rebounding and shot blocking for big men much higher than their effective FG%...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Prime is not best single season...... No idea how you come up with that. TS% and eFG% are huge for an offensive big man. If Prime = best single season, CP3 is up there among the best and KG is top 10. LBJ is already top 3, Tracey McGrady is a top 10 player too.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 08:01:42 PM
Prime is not best single season...... No idea how you come up with that. TS% and eFG% are huge for an offensive big man. If Prime = best single season, CP3 is up there among the best and KG is top 10. LBJ is already top 3.
Why isnt it? I've got my lovely spreadsheet with regular season numbers, playoff numbers and best statistical season numbers + their MVPs/Rings... Using points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, TS, PER and WS/48... Makes sorting out a top 10 pretty clear (although, everyone should have some element of an opinon involved rather than just being a stat junkie).

I'm not using best single season as the sole measure for my top 10, but it plays a part if 2 guys are hard to split...

You telling me that eFG and TS are more important stats than rebounding, assists, steals and blocks? Just because it is in the advanced section, doesnt make it more useful. Advanced stats have a wide range of haters too, their results arent the be all and end all!

Not sure how eFG even comes into it when comparing Shaq + Kareem... eFG is simply taking into account that 3's are worth more to a player so their FG% is adjusted to account for this... Last time I checked, Shaq and Kareem werent raining threes, so the stat is close to worthless.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 08:34:08 PM
So thats why eFG is so low because its adjusting for the whole 2 3 pointers in their careers.

Look. EFG and TS is huge because when a dominant big man is dominant, he scores at will, which is what he does. Shaq had a higher % because no one could even stop him. Thats even with Kareem's sky hook.

 You know Shaq has a higher rebounding % anyway right? Points is really a showerty way to look at it as well. Somone can score 35 points a game (Kobe) and not even make the playoffs.

Prime has ever ever been just a single season. Like I said above, if it was, then so many players will be above others in nthis top 10.

For instance a top 10 would like this

1. Michael Jordan 87-88
2. LeBron James 08-09
3. David Robinson 93-94
4. Kareem 71-72
5. Shaq 99-00
6. Dwayne Wade 08-09
7. Tracey McGrady 02-03
8. Chris Paul 08-09
9. Connie Hawkins (lol) 68-69
10. Kevin Garnett 03-04

Se how flawed only going on a single season looks? You need to go overall prime, if you want to do prime. Which for most people is a 5 year spell. Jordan was like 7-8, Kareem as said, 11 or so.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 09:33:35 PM
You know bball is a two-way game? Sure, Kareem wasnt elite defensively but he still affected more shots than Shaq ever did. If Shaq could hit FTs maybe this wouldnt even be a discussion haha. Shaq had noticeable weaknesses man...

I'd argue that Lebron has never been better than he was last season, but thats beside the point.

Single-season prime was just an extra bit of info I chucked in there. Its interesting to look at when comparing MJ to Kobe, Bird to.Lebron etc.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 09:44:22 PM
Kareem was actually very good defensively. I still have Kareem>Shaq, but if we just take in primes, Shaqs is better. As a career, because Kareem's longetivity on peak outweighs Shaq's peak, Kareem is the better player because of his output.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 10:17:42 PM
Well we agree then :P

Cant see how there is any controversy at all by having Kareem @ 2, Shaq @ 6.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 10, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
Because Magic>Kareem, remember ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 10, 2014, 11:26:18 PM
Because Magic>Kareem, remember ;)
Its a toss-up man! :P
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 12, 2014, 02:37:40 PM
Wouldn't Kareems prime be better because he did it for 11 years an Shaq only went for 5?

no matter the stats being in your prime for 11 i think is being in your prime for 6 more years than Shaq's 5?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 13, 2014, 08:00:55 PM
Wouldn't Kareems prime be better because he did it for 11 years an Shaq only went for 5?

no matter the stats being in your prime for 11 i think is being in your prime for 6 more years than Shaq's 5?

This is why I keep saying Kareem>Shaq.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 15, 2014, 02:54:40 PM
Then why is there 3 pages of arguing about who is better when you would have said the same thing from the start?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 16, 2014, 10:08:07 AM
Because Shaq has a higher peak, which is what I've been saying. Kareem>Shaq in terms of overall career and player. Peak Shaq> Peak Kareem though.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Windigo on February 16, 2014, 10:12:27 AM
The thread title isn't: "Top 10 Greatest NBA Prime Players Of All Time."

Bottom line -> Kareem is better than Shaq.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3737 on February 16, 2014, 12:47:50 PM
Which was my exact point. However Jayman started saying and talking about primes, which led me to the Shaq vs Kareem.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on February 16, 2014, 09:22:32 PM
Could Magic have won 5 titles if he had Shaq instead of Kareem?

Im not sure...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on April 13, 2014, 02:25:18 AM
for the 5 years in Shaq's prime, they wipe the floor. Magic didn't even have prime Kareem when he won those.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on April 13, 2014, 08:54:08 AM
Kept telling my mate that prime KG is the best PF ever...

Agreed?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on April 13, 2014, 05:03:34 PM
For that one season, yeah, but he didn't really continue that.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on April 13, 2014, 05:22:04 PM
For that one season, yeah, but he didn't really continue that.
But his prime still beats out Timmy, Dirk, Malone, Barkley etc
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on April 13, 2014, 06:08:02 PM
Only for that one season though. Not sure if just one single season counts him to be > someone. If he continued like that for 3-4 or even just 2, then yeah, but I think Duncan is the best PF.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Shaggy on May 03, 2014, 09:24:07 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem
5. Shaq
6. LBJ
7. Russell
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on May 03, 2014, 05:24:23 PM
Oooh I'm as someone brought this thread back to life.

I love the list, Shaggy. But would you consider Tim Duncan?
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: RiOtChEsS on May 04, 2014, 08:17:18 AM
Where is George Muresan? Cliff Livingston? Manut Bol? Blasphemy ;D
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on May 17, 2014, 08:10:09 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Kareem Abdul Jabaar
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Tim Duncan
8. LeBron James
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on May 17, 2014, 10:02:47 PM
Russell @ 2 is absolutely crazy..
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on May 17, 2014, 11:09:25 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Kareem Abdul Jabaar
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Tim Duncan
8. LeBron James

9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

You are sick.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on May 17, 2014, 11:12:02 PM
I can see arguments for the rest but I cannot see a single argument for russell to be that high.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on May 18, 2014, 08:00:48 AM
I can see arguments for the rest but I cannot see a single argument for russell to be that high.
He's there not because the numbers say he is the 2nd greatest. He's there because he was a winner. 11x time champion!

Pretty sure Bill Simmons has him at #2 also. It isnt crazy. When you're the best player on a title winning team as many times as he was, you deserve to be in the top few players of all-time
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on May 18, 2014, 01:34:27 PM
You have to take into consideration era... or else Wilt would be the greatest of all time without doubt.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: tbagrocks on May 18, 2014, 03:25:30 PM
Yeah we all saw Russell, just like we all saw the Don

He'd be top 5 no doubt, 2? Well, possibly
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on May 18, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
Sometimes greatness just overpower the stat sheet, and that's how I feel about Russell. The dude is just a winner.

Keep in mind that blocks weren't recorded when Russell was playing. People estimate that he would have averaged at least 6 per game.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on May 18, 2014, 10:44:23 PM
There was also no defensive shot clock so he  could liyterally stand undet the ring for ever.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 09, 2014, 03:46:35 PM
Im on the poker forum 2p2 where the MJ vs LBJ discussion came up.

There is a very known poster there by the name of Bob Voulgaris. http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/15074-high-stakes-poker-player-bob-voulgaris-described-as-world-s-top-nba-gambler

He watches every minute of every game every season. He listed his top 10.

1.MJ/LBJ
2.MJ/LBJ
3.Magic
4.Kareem
5.Shaq
6.Duncan
7.Bird
8.Hakeem
9.Russell
10.Wilt

Goes on to say no one has ever influenced a game like LBJ and that playing the way he did and doing what he did @ the cavs is one of the biggest achievements of all time.

Few other things he pointed out

- MJ did go 1-9 in he playoffs before his 25 year-old season before Pippen arrived.
- Lebron went 36-25 by the same age while carrying a crap team to the finals.
- MJ leaves a team, they lose 2 more games.
- LBJ leaves a team, they lose 42 more games
- 87-88 Jordan is viewed as the greatest season ever, however LBJ's 08-09 season and playoffs is almost identical.
- LBJ vs Detroit and Celtics in the playoffs were 2 of the greatest post season displays.
- LBJ/MJ are singlely the 2 greatest players to ever play the game and no one even comes remotely close to the pair
- LBJ will prob be the greatest ever player if the trend continues, (ie winning and being elite season after season)
- MJ's career is hugely hurt by his 3 retirements. If he continued, it might not be close.


Interesting. I personally don't think LBJ is the 2nd best player of all time, but you can't argue with this guy since he has ever credential. He knows his shower.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 09, 2014, 03:49:34 PM
Interesting he doesn't mention MJ going 6-0 in the finals compared to LeBron 2-2 (about to be 2-3 ;))
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Master Q on June 09, 2014, 03:57:28 PM
I follow him on twitter, he is friends with Bill Simmons I think.

He's a pro gambler, makes tons of bets on the NBA, he knows what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 09, 2014, 03:59:32 PM
Yeah, he can look at the bookies lines and bet the profitable ones which is determined pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 09, 2014, 04:43:52 PM
Interesting he doesn't mention MJ going 6-0 in the finals compared to LeBron 2-2 (about to be 2-3 ;))

So what? Jordan has performed better in the NBA Finals than LeBron. That's not the discussion.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 09, 2014, 04:47:45 PM
Interesting he doesn't mention MJ going 6-0 in the finals compared to LeBron 2-2 (about to be 2-3 ;))

So what? Jordan has performed better in the NBA Finals than LeBron. That's not the discussion.
Its a huge part of the discussion...
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 09, 2014, 04:52:09 PM
This is what I mean by you taking certain things > others. You have way too much weight towards oh he played better than him in 30 or so games. LeBron was 30-20 in the playoffs while mj was 1-9. What LeBron did with the cavs is > what MJ's 6-0 record. Way to many fans put too much meaning into 6-0. Yes its excellent and elite, but its not the end all.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 09, 2014, 05:15:55 PM
This is what I mean by you taking certain things > others. You have way too much weight towards oh he played better than him in 30 or so games. LeBron was 30-20 in the playoffs while mj was 1-9. What LeBron did with the cavs is > what MJ's 6-0 record. Way to many fans put too much meaning into 6-0. Yes its excellent and elite, but its not the end all.
I think you have to consider that during those years,  MJ was losing to Isiah's Pistons and Bird's Celtics... Sure, LeBron won some playoffs games on a shower team, but Chauncey's Pistons, Pierce's Celtics, Dwight's Magic aren't exactly crazy strong competition like MJ had to go through.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 11:09:33 AM
Looks like we can lock MJ @ 1.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 04:31:51 PM
Looks like we can lock MJ @ 1.
LBJ will be lucky to crap top 5.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 06:36:47 PM
Am I allowed to have Duncan over LBJ now? :-X
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 08:28:20 PM
Lbj is still easy top 5 and is like 90% to finish 2. Your hatred is reallyyyy bad.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 08:40:21 PM
Lbj is still easy top 5 and is like 90% to finish 2. Your hatred is reallyyyy bad.
2 rings isn't enough to get in my top 5.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
If rings is your only argument. Fisher> Bird.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 08:56:11 PM
If rings is your only argument. Fisher> Bird.
Rings is my argument when comparing all-time greats, because statistically, they're all so dominant.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 09:35:54 PM
But some are more dominant than others, like LBJ who has had like 7 or so seasons greater than Bird.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 09:41:24 PM
But some are more dominant than others, like LBJ who has had like 7 or so seasons greater than Bird.
I'm talking Duncan. But yeah, statistically, LBJ > Bird.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 09:43:57 PM
His had like 7 seasons better than everyone not named Shaq/Jordan.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 09:48:48 PM
His had like 7 seasons better than everyone not named Shaq/Jordan.
Kareem would disagree. And so would Wilt.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 10:03:45 PM
LBJ>Wilt for the past 7 seasons and its not even close.

Kareem has had one season better in the past 7( which was lebrons worst by far). So I will correct my statement.

LeBron in the past 7 seasons, 6 of them has been better than anyone not named Shaq/Jordan.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 10:08:07 PM
LBJ>Wilt for the past 7 seasons and its not even close.

Kareem has had one season better in the past 7( which was lebrons worst by far). So I will correct my statement.

LeBron in the past 7 seasons, 6 of them has been better than anyone not named Shaq/Jordan.
Saw today that Wilt has the 3 highest PER seasons ever  ???

71/72 for Kareem was statistically just crazy.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 10:13:12 PM
Again, in a time where you can just sit under the ring and take as long as u want to shoot. For a guy who was like 7ft+. It was an easy game. There was no outside game back in those days.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 10:17:55 PM
Again, in a time where you can just sit under the ring and take as long as u want to shoot. For a guy who was like 7ft+. It was an easy game. There was no outside game back in those days.
Hence why Wilt is still on the board in our draft ;)
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 10:21:16 PM
LBJ still being on the board is hilarious.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 16, 2014, 10:44:14 PM
LBJ still being on the board is hilarious.
Almost took him. But couldn't pass up building around the greatest big man ever.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 16, 2014, 11:05:15 PM
Single season though.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 17, 2014, 08:27:20 AM
Single season though.
Kareem isn't even that far behind Shaq for no.1 big man in their prime.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 17, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
He is behind though, but as for having someone for a single season, I'd take Jordan/Shaq/LeBron over anyone.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Jay on June 17, 2014, 09:34:19 AM
He is behind though, but as for having someone for a single season, I'd take Jordan/Shaq/LeBron over anyone.
In a vacuum, yes... But it's much easier to build around a dominant big man than a wing player.
Title: Re: Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of all-time
Post by: Andrew3747 on June 17, 2014, 10:13:46 AM
We aren't building anything though. Its not like we are getting X amount of output. We are getting the exact output of that player. Building teams is only relevant when there aren't stacked teams. Where you can get an elite+very good+good peices then it really matters. For the first round, best season>better career easier to build around.

Anyway, whos turn is it in the thread?