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Author Topic: NBA Draft & Off-Season News 2016  (Read 11971 times)
valkorum
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2016, 05:50:00 PM »

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7

Not guaranteed that the top 2 point guards will fall to 7 (Dunn/Murray).  If they trade Okafor for pick 3, then they can go Ingram/Simmons with pick 1, then PG with pick 3.  They get the best player available at pick 1 and then the best PG (which they need) 

Boston (as much as Holz wont like it) need a big man as Zeller/Olynyk aren't going to be your top calibre centre.  The 3rd pick is a stretch to pick up the likes of Labissiere/Davis/Poeltl... which is why Boston are tipped to pick Bender.  I just don't see how he can be a centre.  He is a stretch 4 and they already have Sullinger.

Let it be known that this trade is exactly what I DON'T want to happen, as I want Dunn to slide to 8th so the Kings can pick him up.
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Holz
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 06:01:31 PM »

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7
How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah

Yeah but jah can turn into a star. Noel a good role player.
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plumdog millionaire
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 06:06:00 PM »

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7
How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah

Yeah but jah can turn into a star. Noel a good role player.
If by star you mean a slightly rich man's Big Al and good role player you mean starter on a contender then yeah that's right
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 07:35:10 PM »

I think the 76ers have drafted poorly the past few seasons. Noel, Embiid and Okafor. Three Big men. With little to no supporting crew
I am a fan of how the Timberwolves are building a side
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 07:49:17 PM »

I think the 76ers have drafted poorly the past few seasons. Noel, Embiid and Okafor. Three Big men. With little to no supporting crew
I am a fan of how the Timberwolves are building a side
Go back to those drafts and try to find guys they realistically should have drafted instead
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 08:18:19 PM »

Joel Embiid- Aaron Gordon (PF), Dante Exum (SG/PG), Marcus Smart (PG), Julius Randle (PF)
Jahlil Okafor - Kristaps (PF/C), Mudiay (PG), Devin Booker (SG)

All are players in positions that they need
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 08:37:53 PM »

Gordon was projected in picks 5-10 that year and so was Smart. I'd say maybe Exum and Randle would have been line ball calls at the time but I assume they thought Embiid would be the best available with the highest potential. They probably didn't think he would sit out two seasons either.

Okafor was a likely 2nd pick that season if it weren't for D'Angelo to pick up stock late in the process. The other two guards would have been considered massive reaches at the time and the jury is still out on whether Mudiay can be a starting level PG. Kristaps... maybe. Remember how much of a massive wildcard he was considered to be? Hindsight is 20/20. Either way he is still a big to your original point.
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valkorum
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 10:49:53 PM »

Kristaps was boo'd by Knicks fans when he was selected.
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 12:30:34 AM »

I think the 76ers have drafted poorly the past few seasons. Noel, Embiid and Okafor. Three Big men. With little to no supporting crew
I am a fan of how the Timberwolves are building a side
Hardly a fair comparison there mate.

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7
How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah
Couple of questions. As Duke fan you've obviously seen a fair bit of the dude play; is there absolutely no hope that he could become at least a serviceable defender? What's holding him back? Effort?

Secondly, are offensive centres really that much of a cancer in modern Bball?
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Holz
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 09:42:04 AM »


How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah
Couple of questions. As Duke fan you've obviously seen a fair bit of the dude play; is there absolutely no hope that he could become at least a serviceable defender? What's holding him back? Effort?

Secondly, are offensive centres really that much of a cancer in modern Bball?
[/quote]

I know its not directed at me but Noel is a good defender, its hard being destroyed each week though.

the offensive centre is not dead. The NBA goes in cycles, i reckon teams will go to guard heavy and then these big offensive centres will take over eventually.

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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 10:33:11 AM »

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7
How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah
Couple of questions. As Duke fan you've obviously seen a fair bit of the dude play; is there absolutely no hope that he could become at least a serviceable defender? What's holding him back? Effort?

Secondly, are offensive centres really that much of a cancer in modern Bball?
Personally, I've noticed that he is basically below average at every aspect of defence. His biggest issue is that yeah, he's an okay athlete as far as centres go, but in the same way that Marc Gasol is - pretty okay on his feet but not explosive at all. He's got good length and size so there is some hope for him, but it will have to be all mental (In terms of getting better awareness wise) and hoping he is a very fast learner. He also has to be more physical and use his natural strength more too but I'm confident he will get better there.

That's a hard question to answer conceptually, and I don't think I can give a great answer. I like to look at things in terms of playoff value because that's where you want to get to, and what we've seen is that it's really hard to play someone like Jah at centre without having a strong defensive supporting cast - Best case you've got someone like Biyombo who is an A+ defender next to him but that's really hard to do without killing your spacing. The centre would have to be so good offensively that the value of his scoring is greater than the cost on defence - You see guys like Love, Scola, Big Al and even Duncan fail that test. Kanter would be one but he's gotten better and has the benefit of being a good two-way rebounder and having Adams, Ibaka, Durant and Roberson playing with him.
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 05:21:46 PM »

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7
How I see it Noel is more likely to be a starter on a contender than Jah
Couple of questions. As Duke fan you've obviously seen a fair bit of the dude play; is there absolutely no hope that he could become at least a serviceable defender? What's holding him back? Effort?

Secondly, are offensive centres really that much of a cancer in modern Bball?
Personally, I've noticed that he is basically below average at every aspect of defence. His biggest issue is that yeah, he's an okay athlete as far as centres go, but in the same way that Marc Gasol is - pretty okay on his feet but not explosive at all. He's got good length and size so there is some hope for him, but it will have to be all mental (In terms of getting better awareness wise) and hoping he is a very fast learner. He also has to be more physical and use his natural strength more too but I'm confident he will get better there.

That's a hard question to answer conceptually, and I don't think I can give a great answer. I like to look at things in terms of playoff value because that's where you want to get to, and what we've seen is that it's really hard to play someone like Jah at centre without having a strong defensive supporting cast - Best case you've got someone like Biyombo who is an A+ defender next to him but that's really hard to do without killing your spacing. The centre would have to be so good offensively that the value of his scoring is greater than the cost on defence - You see guys like Love, Scola, Big Al and even Duncan fail that test. Kanter would be one but he's gotten better and has the benefit of being a good two-way rebounder and having Adams, Ibaka, Durant and Roberson playing with him.
Cheers for the insight man, much appreciated! As a pretty casual observer it just seems to me like defence, particularly when you're gifted with the size to be affective, is an effort based attribute. Really irks me when I see big dudes just coasting on defence.

I suppose a key factor is his lack of mid-range game too. At least that would help with spacing ala Love if you could pair him with a defensive beast.
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2016, 11:45:03 PM »

The more I watch and read about Dragan Bender, the more I love him as a prospect. Someone please stop me before I say he belongs with Ingram in the 'slightly worse than Simmons' tier  :-X

Unless a trade for a legit all-star comes up (So no, not Okafor), keep the 3rd pick, and draft Bender.
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 11:46:47 PM »

What would 76's do with pick 3? Okafor is better than the pick 3's in this draft.

This

i just wouldn't take it, Noel leaving is preference for me. No need to get pick 3 for a point guard when you can get a point guard with pick 7

and this. You also have crap load of cap space, you can get a point guard in FA. If you are drafting Simmons you are playing him as a point forward anyway, you need shooters around them so why bother? The only trade I can see them making for Jah would have to involve pick 2 from the Lakers allowing them to go Simmons AND Ingram. Another rumored trade has been Jah and the Lakers pick Philly hold for Ingram. It allows them to get the two top prospects in what is perceived as a 2 player draft giving them a core of Simmons, Ingram, Embiid, Saric and Noel. You also have your role players like Grant, RoCo etc and another two late first round picks to add your shooters.

The only reason you would be trading Noel is because he is the first to come off his rookie deal of the three big guys. You still wouldn't really want to do it being the 6'ers because Noel had a higher defensive plus/minus last year as a 19 year old rookie than Draymond, Marc Gasol, Kawhi, Deandre, Millsap, etc.

14th in the whole league in defensive win shares last year. This year his numbers regressed because he played so much pf. He's clearly a 5.



Go back to those drafts and try to find guys they realistically should have drafted instead

Joel Embiid- Aaron Gordon (PF), Dante Exum (SG/PG), Marcus Smart (PG), Julius Randle (PF)
Jahlil Okafor - Kristaps (PF/C), Mudiay (PG), Devin Booker (SG)

All are players in positions that they need

Gordon was projected in picks 5-10 that year and so was Smart. I'd say maybe Exum and Randle would have been line ball calls at the time but I assume they thought Embiid would be the best available with the highest potential. They probably didn't think he would sit out two seasons either.

Okafor was a likely 2nd pick that season if it weren't for D'Angelo to pick up stock late in the process. The other two guards would have been considered massive reaches at the time and the jury is still out on whether Mudiay can be a starting level PG. Kristaps... maybe. Remember how much of a massive wildcard he was considered to be? Hindsight is 20/20. Either way he is still a big to your original point.

plumdog pretty much summed it up. They are in a rebuild you take the best player available, the year they drafted Embiid it was a 3 player draft and Embiid was the pick of the lot before the injuries. Go and watch his tape at Kentucky or even the drills he has been doing before games and you can see he is a talent you can build a team around. You list Exum who showed basically nothing at NBA level and then injured his knee last year. There was no way they were taking a guy like him. Gordon was a project player similar to someone like Noah Vonleh, Embiid is a superior talent and people will see that when he gets on the court next year.

The draft with Jah he was the number 2 prospect heading in, the better pick for Philly would have been Russell but the Lakers picked him, so they took the next best prospect and an insurance policy for Embiid. Kristaps actually refused to work out for Philly and they would be in the same spot had they drafted Kristaps over Jah with too many PF/C's so how is he a better pick?


Couple of questions. As Duke fan you've obviously seen a fair bit of the dude play; is there absolutely no hope that he could become at least a serviceable defender? What's holding him back? Effort?

Secondly, are offensive centres really that much of a cancer in modern Bball?

I don't think it is effort with him, there are times he was clearly trying but was getting out muscled or out positioned. He has brilliant offensive footwork, but lacks it on the defensive end. There was a guy that had been watching him play all through high school because his daughter was at the same school and he mentioned that he lacked lateral movement and defensive awareness back then. They might be able to turn him into a serviceable defender with the right coaching but he probably will be that Al Jefferson type guy where he is really good offensively but struggles defensively.
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Mat0369
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« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 11:48:34 PM »

The more I watch and read about Dragan Bender, the more I love him as a prospect. Someone please stop me before I say he belongs with Ingram in the 'slightly worse than Simmons' tier  :-X

Unless a trade for a legit all-star comes up (So no, not Okafor), keep the 3rd pick, and draft Bender.

If Philly were to get pick 3 Bender is the BPA, they wouldn't pick him up though because it is another big man. It makes absolutely no sense for both teams to make the trade and Boston would have to give up more then 3 to get Jah anyway.
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