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Author Topic: Hannah Mouncey not eligible for the draft  (Read 4139 times)
Ziplock
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« on: October 17, 2017, 05:08:01 PM »

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey-has-been-blocked-from-playing-aflw/news-story/fda4b59ae5bf5b10660a6247c6dd9722

It's a pretty weak move by the AFL. I'd like to clarify and say that if she's under the international Olympics committees guidelines for testosterone levels then I think she should have been eligible.

The AFL is probably in its rights to deny her from playing, but what makes it weak is that if that's their call they should just harden up and say it- they still see transgender women as being men and don't think they should be playing in AFLW. What's the bs about her physical disparity? There's a fair few women in AFLW in the 180s height wise, Erin McKinnon is only 1cm shorter than Hannah. Sarah Perkins weighs 95kg, I don't see anyone going on about them being banned.

Since when has size excluded somebody from the AFL? At his heaviest 120+kg Sandilands would have outweighed blokes like Kade Stewart by nearly 60kg. Nobody called Sandi to be banned even though he's been at some times like 5+cm and 10+kg larger than the next biggest player.

Does that mean if woman who was born female applies for the draft and they're 191cm tall and weigh 101kg they'll be denied because of size? flower no. If they're going to ban Hannah from AFLW then logically they should ban her from all female AFL competitions, if her size gives her an unfair advantage at the national level it sure gives her an unfair advantage at every other level.

Weak as piss AFL- if you're going to discriminate harden the flower up and admit to what you're doing.

And yes, I understand the potential showerstorm this post could make- I know a lot of you guys agree she shouldn't be playing, and some of you probably don't see her as a woman at all. I disagree with those opinions strongly, but that's not really what my point is.
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Holz
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 05:24:29 PM »

I certainly agree with you that the wording of what they said is completely stupid. In the NBA most of the guys there are monsters you cant say well anyone over 7 foot tall should be disallowed because they have a significant physical advantage over most people.

If you are going to ban her from playing then it must be that physically you still classify her as a male player.

Now i don't really know too much about the science/biology side however in my view there is a big difference in seeing/viewing a person as a gender and then viewing them biologically as a particular gender. Given this is a sport then the latter does need to be taken into account.

Given males are excluded from playing in the AFLW the question comes down to biologically is she still classified as a man. To me thats not disrespectful and calling her a man at all.

I think its clear they have tried to be a PC as possible but have stuffed this up. Realistically no matter what they where going to do they where going to get backlash.

1. Let her play
2. dont let her play as say biologically a man
3. dont let her play and make up some rubbish excuse.

option 3 was probably the easiest option.

I certainly dont agree with you saying if she is under the testerone levels set by international guidelines then she should be allowed to play. If thats the case then any male who is under those levels should be able to play in the AFLW league.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:26:07 PM by Holz » Logged
Ringo
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 06:13:28 PM »

Is the AFL being hypocritical here.  They came out strongly in support of Marriage Equality and now refuse a transgender player the right to play in the AFLW. Double standards if you ask me.
Not saying I agree though but just pointing out what as I see as double standards.
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Ziplock
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 06:23:28 PM »

I certainly agree with you that the wording of what they said is completely stupid. In the NBA most of the guys there are monsters you cant say well anyone over 7 foot tall should be disallowed because they have a significant physical advantage over most people.

If you are going to ban her from playing then it must be that physically you still classify her as a male player.

Now i don't really know too much about the science/biology side however in my view there is a big difference in seeing/viewing a person as a gender and then viewing them biologically as a particular gender. Given this is a sport then the latter does need to be taken into account.

Given males are excluded from playing in the AFLW the question comes down to biologically is she still classified as a man. To me thats not disrespectful and calling her a man at all.

I think its clear they have tried to be a PC as possible but have stuffed this up. Realistically no matter what they where going to do they where going to get backlash.

1. Let her play
2. dont let her play as say biologically a man
3. dont let her play and make up some rubbish excuse.

option 3 was probably the easiest option.

I certainly dont agree with you saying if she is under the testerone levels set by international guidelines then she should be allowed to play. If thats the case then any male who is under those levels should be able to play in the AFLW league.

It's a league for women, so anyone who identifies as a woman and is under those levels should be able to play. So yeah, I agree to a degree- but if a guy identifies as a woman then that makes them a woman... if that makes sense :p It's actually a pain in the ass to get your gender reclassified, so I don't think you'd see a widespread problem of non-transgender guys saying they're women to play afl.

Essentially the testosterone level is what they use as a biological marker for whether people are advantaged from their gender. It's what accounts for most of the discrepancies physically between men and women for things like muscle mass etc. Testosterone and its precursors are (from memory) what they use to figure out if someone's using steroids.

http://basketball.net.au/ba_player_team/opals/
https://www.usab.com/womens/national-team/roster.aspx

That's a link to the Australian and American Womens Basketball teams. They've both got players over 195cms tall, one of the Americans is over 200cm and weighs over 95kg, should they be disqualified from playing in a womens competition? They're the same size as Hannah, and physically not disadvantaged?

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Jay
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 10:53:21 PM »

Is the AFL being hypocritical here.  They came out strongly in support of Marriage Equality and now refuse a transgender player the right to play in the AFLW. Double standards if you ask me.
Not saying I agree though but just pointing out what as I see as double standards.
Those two things are not at all similar..
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Ringo
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 09:59:17 AM »

Is the AFL being hypocritical here.  They came out strongly in support of Marriage Equality and now refuse a transgender player the right to play in the AFLW. Double standards if you ask me.
Not saying I agree though but just pointing out what as I see as double standards.
Those two things are not at all similar..
Slightly disagree Jay as transgender marriage is part of marriage equality and we are talking transgender players here.  Sp hence my comment.
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Holz
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 10:10:19 AM »

Is the AFL being hypocritical here.  They came out strongly in support of Marriage Equality and now refuse a transgender player the right to play in the AFLW. Double standards if you ask me.
Not saying I agree though but just pointing out what as I see as double standards.
Those two things are not at all similar..
Slightly disagree Jay as transgender marriage is part of marriage equality and we are talking transgender players here.  Sp hence my comment.

one is a competition where your team comes up against another team and biology is the thing that actually defines the competition as Men as not allowed to play the game because of a biological difference.

The AFL is not saying that Transgender people is not a thing or they shouldn't be getting married.

I dont see how its related at all.

This is probably the best response to that. There isnt has never been a discussion that non straight female players should be banned from ALFW because thats absurd. Thats because its too different things. Likewise but i might be wrong on this but if one transgender person born a man but identifies as a Women and one transgender person born as a woman identifies as a man want to get married is there anything stopping them?

Sporting competitions have certain classifications for a reason. as a 27 year old i can't go down to the local under 15s football game and say i want to play. Likewise a sprinter who doesn't qualify for the Olympics cant go and enter the Paralympics. That has nothing to do with being anti that person being excluded from the competition.

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Ziplock
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 02:11:28 PM »

Is the AFL being hypocritical here.  They came out strongly in support of Marriage Equality and now refuse a transgender player the right to play in the AFLW. Double standards if you ask me.
Not saying I agree though but just pointing out what as I see as double standards.
Those two things are not at all similar..
Slightly disagree Jay as transgender marriage is part of marriage equality and we are talking transgender players here.  Sp hence my comment.

one is a competition where your team comes up against another team and biology is the thing that actually defines the competition as Men as not allowed to play the game because of a biological difference.

The AFL is not saying that Transgender people is not a thing or they shouldn't be getting married.

I dont see how its related at all.

This is probably the best response to that. There isnt has never been a discussion that non straight female players should be banned from ALFW because thats absurd. Thats because its too different things. Likewise but i might be wrong on this but if one transgender person born a man but identifies as a Women and one transgender person born as a woman identifies as a man want to get married is there anything stopping them?

Sporting competitions have certain classifications for a reason. as a 27 year old i can't go down to the local under 15s football game and say i want to play. Likewise a sprinter who doesn't qualify for the Olympics cant go and enter the Paralympics. That has nothing to do with being anti that person being excluded from the competition.

Look, transgender rights are part of an issue with marriage equality in the sense that at the moment (for instance) a woman who was born male and hasn't had her gender reassigned legally (which can be a relatively exhaustive process) can't marry their male partner.

Regardless, they're similar in the sense of sex and gender discrimination. I don't believe the AFL is necessarily beholden to support trans people because of their support for gay people, but when you only appear to back the LGB portion of the LGBTQI community, it does seem discongruous.

Sporting classifications are made more on a systematic level than on an individual level.  There's a reason the IOC allows presurgery athletes to compete in the Olympics- your testosterone is what gives guys a huge bulk of their muscle mass, dropping that levels out the advantage that someone would have being born male. The only immutable change is height really, however I don't think that Hannah's height is so extremely advantageous that it should exclude her. I've read studies where trans athletes have a massive drop in their speed etc. after hormone therapy which they think is due to the fact their muscle mass has decreased but they still need to move around the same size frame.

To be honest, I'd be curious as to what the AFLWs playing group in generally thought about having a transgender woman in the league. I'm actually not sure about which direction their opinions would go... I'd be interested to find out (not that we'd ever know- if the result went in either direction the AFL sure wouldn't want to public to know :P )

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery
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Holz
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 02:25:36 PM »

here is an interesting one. What do you think would be the case if a Transgender person born a female wanted to play in the AFL?

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Toga
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2017, 04:22:33 PM »

Common sense
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elephants
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2017, 05:39:46 PM »

He should nominate for the AFL Draft
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Koop
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2017, 05:47:38 PM »

Common sense

He should nominate for the AFL Draft

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PowerBug
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 07:12:33 PM »

reported
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Ziplock
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 10:46:42 PM »

here is an interesting one. What do you think would be the case if a Transgender person born a female wanted to play in the AFL?

I'm all for giving it a crack if they're good enough. I doubt we'll see anyone even attempt it in our lifetimes though- there's never even been an openly gay AFL player... tbh footy clubs can be a really toxic culture like that.

That being said, that doesn't really have anything to do with my views on transgender people,  I also think that women should also be allowed to be able to have a crack at mens comps in general if they're good enough. We'll never see that happen either- might have been a shot in the far future if AFLW hadn't happened :P
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jvalles69
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 02:47:26 PM »

here is an interesting one. What do you think would be the case if a Transgender person born a female wanted to play in the AFL?

I'm all for giving it a crack if they're good enough. I doubt we'll see anyone even attempt it in our lifetimes though- there's never even been an openly gay AFL player... tbh footy clubs can be a really toxic culture like that.

That being said, that doesn't really have anything to do with my views on transgender people,  I also think that women should also be allowed to be able to have a crack at mens comps in general if they're good enough. We'll never see that happen either- might have been a shot in the far future if AFLW hadn't happened :P

We've got a gay guy at our footy club and he fits in pretty well, typical bloke, young dude only about 25, but he comes out for beers with us all the time.  Prob helps his personality is pretty loud and outgoing and doesn't take life too seriously.  No ones ever caused him grief at the club, and our clubs got all sorts, everyone respects him and treats him like part of the team.
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