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Author Topic: Melbourne Discussion  (Read 59167 times)
Purple 77
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Oh, my.

« on: April 06, 2014, 08:29:49 PM »

Thought we were due for one of these threads.

Am curious to what MTTY, Big Mac and my other fellow sufferers have to say about what has gone down so far this year. I myself have employed the numb tactic to cope. I knew we were headed this way after St Kilda, so I did my grieving then. I find myself having a minimal amount of care these days, as the 8 years has taken its toll.

It may be Round 3 and there is 19 more games to be played, but I'd be a fool to think it will change mid-season. Positive stuff just seems to avoid melbourne. But I guess Roos has the remainder of this year, and another year or 2 to rub off on the players.
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Mat0369
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#shirleytempledidthis

« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2014, 09:06:16 PM »

The two games I have watched (all of today's and about half of the Saints), there are two things that stand out with Melbourne. Poor disposal and lack of a marking target up forward. Considering they struggled to win the hardball last season other then Jones and Viney, the additions of Tyson, Vince, Cross and Michie have been good ones (although Michie has been dropped).

They have a cornerstone to build around in Hogan who should hopefully develop into an excellent forward target and it will be good to see how he goes once he gets on the park. I think in the next draft/FA they need to take the best users of the ball available and a couple of guys that can break the lines.
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Mailman the 2nd
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They're coming for 9th

« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 09:23:06 PM »

I'll be honest, if 2 of Dawes, Hogan or Clark were in the side for the first 3 games, Melbourne would be 2-1 and everybody would be praising Roos for being a savior coach.

The reality is though, they went 0-3 and looks like they will struggle to have a competitive forward line for half a year.

Much better side than last year though, as was just said Vince, Tyson and Cross all look really strong so far.

Need to do what Richmond did to get out of their slump, cutting away the dozen odd players getting semi-regular games who are just below AFL standard.
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MTTY
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SC Inaugural m0nty medal winner; Season 2011

« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 09:41:00 PM »

Basically stopped paying attention after that dismal effort against the Eagles.

There are actually only a few players who are at a standard to be on an AFL list, whether that be due to poor development, lack of skills, lack of talent or lack of the mental side of things.

Mitch Clark
Mitch Clisby
Daniel Cross
Chris Dawes
Lynden Dunn
James Frawley
Colin Garland
Max Gawn
Alexis Georgiou
Jack Grimes
Jesse Hogan
Jeremy Howe
Nathan Jones
Dean Kent
Tom McDonald
Viv Michie
Aidan Riley
Jimmy Toumpas
Jack Trengove
Dom Tyson
Bernie Vince
Jack Vinery
Jack Watts

*Excludes this years draftees and the rookie list (bar Georgiou)

That gives us 23 players who have the very minimal ability (while some have closer to A-Grade) to play at AFL level.

From this, the only players who would be able to be a part of most of the leagues best 22's are:

Mitch Clark
Daniel Cross
Chris Dawes
Lynden Dunn (Wouldn't have thought so based on previous years, but he is now at that level)
James Frawley
Colin Garland
Jesse Hogan
Jeremy Howe
Nathan Jones
Dom Tyson
Bernie Vince
Jack Viney

That's only 12 players on our list, who should be playing AFL footy and would be capable of doing so at other clubs. Hence, it is very much like playing with 12 men a game (and our scores reflect that). From that list 4 are currently injured, which makes things a whole lot worse.

Ratings these 12 players, on a grading scale, of where they would rank as players in most teams:

Elite - A (Grade) - B - C

Mitch Clark - A
Daniel Cross - B
Chris Dawes - C
Lynden Dunn - C
James Frawley - B
Colin Garland - B
Jesse Hogan - C (For now)
Jeremy Howe - C
Nathan Jones - A
Dom Tyson - B
Bernie Vince - B
Jack Viney - B

The point in all this is that we have a list that is going nowhere. We won't be seeing any good results this year, even with the inclusion of our forwards. I now know that and have accepted that. Am I willing to wait for Roos to go through another two trading periods- get rid of the dead wood and pick up players like the Tyson's, Vince and Michie's? I'm not sure I am... After all these years I don't think i'm up for another rebuild.

So what does this mean? I seriously am beginning to worry that, if other supporters feel similar, the worst could happen. One of these three things could take place:

1. Merge
2. Cease to exist, while another team comes into the competition
3. Relocation

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Ziplock
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 09:46:58 PM »

I'll be honest, if 2 of Dawes, Hogan or Clark were in the side for the first 3 games, Melbourne would be 2-1 and everybody would be praising Roos for being a savior coach.

The reality is though, they went 0-3 and looks like they will struggle to have a competitive forward line for half a year.

Much better side than last year though, as was just said Vince, Tyson and Cross all look really strong so far.

Need to do what Richmond did to get out of their slump, cutting away the dozen odd players getting semi-regular games who are just below AFL standard.

hey, round 1 the saints were missing montagna and hayes, and the giants were missing davis, mohr, palmer, shiel and whitfield (although, mohr/ davis are the biggest losses for us).

Both the saints and the giants were missing key structural components in our games against melbourne as well- if both teams had been fielding a best 22, I think the results for the melbourne games would have been pretty similar.

I would cut Hogan off that list- I think he'd play games for every team in the comp, but best 22 for most teams is a big call for a guy who hasn't made a senior appearance.
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Mailman the 2nd
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They're coming for 9th

« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 09:57:31 PM »

I'll be honest, if 2 of Dawes, Hogan or Clark were in the side for the first 3 games, Melbourne would be 2-1 and everybody would be praising Roos for being a savior coach.

The reality is though, they went 0-3 and looks like they will struggle to have a competitive forward line for half a year.

Much better side than last year though, as was just said Vince, Tyson and Cross all look really strong so far.

Need to do what Richmond did to get out of their slump, cutting away the dozen odd players getting semi-regular games who are just below AFL standard.

hey, round 1 the saints were missing montagna and hayes, and the giants were missing davis, mohr, palmer, shiel and whitfield (although, mohr/ davis are the biggest losses for us).

Both the saints and the giants were missing key structural components in our games against melbourne as well- if both teams had been fielding a best 22, I think the results for the melbourne games would have been pretty similar.

I would cut Hogan off that list- I think he'd play games for every team in the comp, but best 22 for most teams is a big call for a guy who hasn't made a senior appearance.

I'll just agree to disagree, I think the midfield Melbourne was playing was strong enough to beat both sides on their good day, sides are always going to have best 22 injuries just the Demons have the main 3 structural components injured which is unlucky.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about Hogan and I'm only going off the hype that he was roughly about as good as Boyd, which is twice as good as what they're fielding now
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Nige
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 10:32:23 PM »

I really think Melbourne's biggest problem is just not having a forward line.

They've got three good forwards in Clark, Dawes and Hogan.

All three are injured and one's on 'personal leave'... The midfield's been pretty decent and guys like Frawley, Dunn and Georgiou aren't playing badly.

They really need at least one Hogan, Dawes or Clark back at the very least.

I do feel for Melbourne, it's not pretty to watch as a football fan.
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Ziplock
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 10:38:00 PM »

I'll be honest, if 2 of Dawes, Hogan or Clark were in the side for the first 3 games, Melbourne would be 2-1 and everybody would be praising Roos for being a savior coach.

The reality is though, they went 0-3 and looks like they will struggle to have a competitive forward line for half a year.

Much better side than last year though, as was just said Vince, Tyson and Cross all look really strong so far.

Need to do what Richmond did to get out of their slump, cutting away the dozen odd players getting semi-regular games who are just below AFL standard.

hey, round 1 the saints were missing montagna and hayes, and the giants were missing davis, mohr, palmer, shiel and whitfield (although, mohr/ davis are the biggest losses for us).

Both the saints and the giants were missing key structural components in our games against melbourne as well- if both teams had been fielding a best 22, I think the results for the melbourne games would have been pretty similar.

I would cut Hogan off that list- I think he'd play games for every team in the comp, but best 22 for most teams is a big call for a guy who hasn't made a senior appearance.

I'll just agree to disagree, I think the midfield Melbourne was playing was strong enough to beat both sides on their good day, sides are always going to have best 22 injuries just the Demons have the main 3 structural components injured which is unlucky.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about Hogan and I'm only going off the hype that he was roughly about as good as Boyd, which is twice as good as what they're fielding now
Maybe we're just going to disagree on this point, but  the giants were missing our two best key defenders, and the dees were missing their best key forwards... that about evens it out in my book.

As for the midfield-well, today at least we had 61 clearances to 36, more disposals, contested possessions, 115 tackles to 70, the giants dominated basically every facet of the game.

Honestly, it was pretty fortunate for the dees that we were basically playing in a swimming pool today- in better conditions it could have ended up being a blow out, but the constant deluge keep the scores down.

I mean, we won by 34 points, when we ran over them in the 4th... but 59 inside 50s to 39, 29 scoring shots to 11, it could have gotten ugly.
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kilbluff1985
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 01:53:02 AM »

draft a forward or trade for one?
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Purple 77
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Oh, my.

« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 09:02:33 AM »

I feel exactly the same MTTY. I almost typed up the players that I thought melbourne must trade/delist, but thought I'd get ridiculed.

I unfortunately think my once favourite players in Grimes and Trengove should be traded. I can't defend them anymore, they have poor disposal, and Trengove attempting a sprint is embarrassing. I think neither, especially Trengove, will not make it as a player with the Dees.

The only way to break this losing mentality, and to get rid of the scars on these players, is to get rid of them. It is the only way to start afresh. The following players should be delisted/traded:

Bail, Rohan
Barry, Dom
Blease, Sam
Byrnes, Shannon
Evans, Michael
Grimes, Jack
Jamar, Mark
Jetta, Neville (R)
Jones, Matt
McKenzie, Jordie
Nicholson, Daniel
Pedersen, Cameron
Spencer, Jake
Strauss, James
Tapscott, Luke
Terlich, Dean
Trengove, Jack

All these players have either shown a huge incompetency in skill, and/or is a list filler, and/or have been at the club too long and shown nothing.

That sir is 17 players. The remainder being comprised of debutants (and some second years), good players, and Jack Watts (I still haven't lost my defence for him). And Jimmy Toumpas, who I'm told by everyone I meet he has potential I am yet to see.

Clark, Mitchell
Clisby, Mitchell
Cross, Daniel
Dawes, Chris
Dunn, Lynden
Fitzpatrick, Jack
Frawley, James
Garland, Colin
Gawn, Max
Georgiou, Alexis (R)
Harmes, James (R)
Hogan, Jesse
Howe, Jeremy
Hunt, Jayden
Jones, Nathan
Kennedy-Harris, Jay
Kent, Dean
King, Max (R)
McDonald, Tom
Michie, Viv
Riley, Aidan
Salem, Christian
Toumpas, Jimmy
Tyson, Dom
Vince, Bernie
Viney, Jack
Watts, Jack

Clark at this stage looks like he may retire altogether, and Frawley will of course go to someone like Hawthorn, as I am sure he is rightly sick of Melbourne. Why would he turn down a chance of winning more than 6 games a season? Hell, a chance at a premiership!

What that leaves, is a mere 8 players that have been exposed to 2 or more seasons of hell. Imagine the mindset and freshness the other 37 would bring!

All the while this 3rd, 4th? I'm not sure anymore. All the while this rebuild is happening, Melbourne cops more and more flak, and the supporters, even the loyal ones, can't bare it anymore and start (rightfully) deserting the club. The membership tally struggles to stay around the 20k mark, and that's when the merger talks, or termination talks begin.



In the season to date, I agree the lack of forward structure is obviously hurting melbourne. But lets have a look at the other stats shall we? Melbourne are losing them! Such as the ones Zip points out. We lost the contested possession count against St Kilda for christs sake, without Montagna, Steven, Hayes and Dal Santo, only to get beaten by flowering debutants!!!

I'm nearly gone. No one should be subjected to supporting a club like the Melbourne Demons.
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Nige
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 09:23:50 AM »

I'm nearly gone. No one should be subjected to supporting a club like the Melbourne Demons.
I feel this is where I advertise my club as the one to support.  :P

Plenty more room for another Richmond fan.  ;)



But yeah, I'm really praying that it doesn't get any worse for Dees fans before it gets better...  :(
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kilbluff1985
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 01:37:21 PM »

I'm nearly gone. No one should be subjected to supporting a club like the Melbourne Demons.
I feel this is where I advertise my club as the one to support.  :P

Plenty more room for another Richmond fan.  ;)



But yeah, I'm really praying that it doesn't get any worse for Dees fans before it gets better...  :(

don't go to Tigers anyone but them
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Purple 77
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Oh, my.

« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 02:21:49 PM »

It's Melbourne or no one unfortunately.  :P
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Toga
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 02:30:18 PM »

Hey guys, heads up. I've dealt with being a Tigers fan my whole life which has been a bloody hard road, as everywhere I have lived in my life so far has been in an area of Australia where there are little or no Tigers supporters around me, while the local teams have been successful (Brisbane, Adelaide, and NSW for a short time). I know how hard it is to watch your team be labelled as a basket case, and to be subject to watching them play like a basket case week in week out.. It's not fun.

But I urge you to stick by your team, it isn't pretty but there's nothing better than a loyal fan in my opinion, shows strength of character to be able to stick by your team through tough times.

That being said, I agree with others in this thread so far, having a competent key forward on the park would go a long way in helping you win games, or at least get closer to opposition, but your midfielders need to work harder as well to get better delivery into that forward line of yours. I haven't watched much of the Dees so far this year but the few minutes I have seen them play I have been very unimpressed by the way all of your players dispose of the ball, too many stupid ineffective hospital handballs to stationary players, and just missing targets in general. It's not pretty football, and it's something I'm sure a lot of amateur teams would be scratching their heads wondering how half the boys in the team get a game.

Where does this improvement start? As you suggest, a list turnover is what needs to happen. Just like Sydney and now Richmond have done in the last decade, recycling players from other clubs that are looking for opportunity elsewhere - but they need to have A-grade potential. This is the hard part, and this is where you need a top recruiting coach that will be able to find these hidden gems on AFL lists... I'm not sure who this recruiting manager might be for you guys, but this needs to be the club's #1 priority, as it will be the key to drafting and trading yourselves to a positive future.

As I said though boys, I know it's not pretty but stick by your club, I'm really hoping things begin to improve in the next few seasons as I know how hard it can be. Come on you Dees. 8)
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Nige
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 03:12:08 PM »

It's Melbourne or no one unfortunately.  :P
Melbourne dies and a Tassie team is born? :P
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